Today’s guest post is written by an LDS trans woman in reaction to President Oak’s Saturday morning General Conference address. Her thoughts and experiences may be her own, but the responsibility to hear her through the lens of the pure love of God belongs to us all. –LTD
I spent Saturday with a lesbian friend. We had barbecue hamburgers and a very pleasant day. When I arrived home around 8 PM, I noticed several messages asking if I was okay. I couldn’t understand why I, so I responded to a friend of mine, assured them I was fine, and asked why they were asking. I was told that President Oaks had given a very disturbing talk regarding the LGBT members of the church at General Conference.
I looked for the talk on the internet. Once I found it, I listened to it. It’s hard to think of a more abusive, arrogant, ignorant and reprehensible talk any time, especially by a church leader of any faith. Elder Oaks proceeded to tell those of us who are transgender or gay/lesbian how we were worth nothing in the sight of God. He said we could not enter the celestial kingdom but could only hope for a lesser glory in the resurrection. His talk makes me think of 2 Timothy 3: 1-5:
1 This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.
2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,
3 Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,
4 Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
In his condemnation of the entire spectrum of LGBT members and non-members, President Oaks took it upon himself to judge us. In a CES fireside on 1 Mar 1985, President Oaks said this about the final judgement: “First, I speak of the final judgment. This is that future occasion in which all of us will stand before the judgment seat of Christ to be judged according to our works. … I believe that the scriptural command to ‘judge not’ refers most clearly to this final judgment, as in the Book of Mormon declaration that “man shall not … judge; for judgment is mine, saith the Lord” (Mormon 8:20).
It seems Elder Oaks has forgotten his own words and instead takes upon himself to judge all LGBT people. This is not Christ-like. He goes on and tells us not to trust scientists and other experts. This so arrogant as to be incredible. Numerous times we have been counselled to seek expert help as needed for health and other issues. Now suddenly, they know nothing and instead we should trust the leaders of the church, none of which have training as therapists and medical doctors regarding transgender issues. In fact, BYU, the church university, doesn’t even have one expert to turn to. The church even denies the possibility of intersex people even though it is a well-documented fact.
I am reminded of others who were deemed unworthy. Think of the woman caught in adultery who was brought to Jesus. John 8 reads:
1 Jesus went unto the mount of Olives.
2 And early in the morning he came again into the temple, and all the people came unto him; and he sat down, and taught them.
3 And the scribes and Pharisees brought unto him a woman taken in adultery; and when they had set her in the midst,
4 They say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act.
5 Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou?
6 This they said, tempting him, that they might have to accuse him. But Jesus stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground, as though he heard them not.
7 So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.
I must infer from his talk that Elder Oaks is without sin.
Most important of all is the impact of this talk on those who have or will listen to it. I have personally felt a need to step away from the church to find rest to my emotionally scarred soul. Being transgender has been a rough road in the church. Many of the members of my ward have been friendly, if not supportive. The church as an institution has not.
The church refuses to use my legal name on church records once I changed it legally, against their own policies. I am not allowed to go to Relief Society or Priesthood or their activities. I can only use the family restroom if they have it and if not, there is no restroom made available to use as a transgender (I suspect that’s illegal), I’m not allowed to serve in any callings, and on and on. Then I am told I’m welcome at church. I think most people would find that quite unreasonable to say that is welcoming.
I had felt for a few weeks that, for my emotional health, I was better off not attending church. This talk from Elder Oaks cemented for me that the teachings of the church regarding the LGBT brothers and sisters is not from the Lord as it doesn’t reflect His teachings. Based on teachings such as from this talk, many members will feel free and justified to look down on LGBT members. My own family is included in this. Here is an email I sent to my siblings and the response I got from my brother:
Me to brothers and sisters:
Some of you may find this [article about the link between genes and transgender] interesting. Most of you either won’t read it or won’t believe particularly after Pres. Oaks talk today to not believe science in these matters. For me, this is good evidence of what I feel. As for Oaks, because of comments like his from church leaders, I had decided a few weeks ago not to go to the Mormon church any more. After this talk I’m seeing clearly I was right. I won’t be returning to church for a long time, if ever. Sorry if that bothers you but it’s my choice.
My brothers response:
Sorry to hear your church decision. When I heard Pres, Oaks comments, I hoped you were listening and would heed the words of one of the Lord’s prophets. But you have clearly decided that the only time they are correct in their teachings is when they agree with you. Some years ago Pres. Benson described this as one of the characteristics of pride. You want the Lord to bow to your opinion rather than listen to Him.
I’m disappointed in your decision, but I’m not particularly surprised by it. You are following the progression of most who apostatize from the Church.
Even though we disagree on this issue, I still love you and you are still my brother. You are still welcome in my home. The only thing I ask is that you do not try to convince my children that you are right and the Church is wrong. If you start doing that I will sever ties. You and I can discuss as much as you like.
From what you have shared, I know you are unhappy, miserable might be a better word. Consider the teachings of a Book of Mormon prophet who said wickedness never was happiness. When you finally ‘come to yourself’ and return to the Church you will once again find the contentment and happiness you are seeking.
My Reply:
Thanks for the loving kind words when I’m feeling down and out. I appreciate the kick in the gut.
I know I’m not the only one who feels this way or is treated this way. Sen Jim Dabakis from Salt Lake posted this on his facebook account:
In response to a speech given today, [he posted]:
“Dear LGBTQ youth of Utah, especially Mormon and trans kids. I know you can feel alone and unloved. No matter who says it, even if it is your family or some high titled official—neither you nor the people who are fighting for you to be treated fairly are ‘Satan’s plan’. You matter. You are loved. You don’t need to change who God made you to make ‘them’ feel like all their cogs fit into their tidy religious machine. This Senator and so many other Utahns are standing with you and not with the bullies–of all ages! People who mouth loving you but that then demand that you conform to their narrow, 1950’s, UnChristian requirements are dangerously ill-informed at best and evil at worst. It will get better for you. I see you. I love you.
Elder Ballard at a BYU devotional in Nov 2017 said this:
I want anyone who is a member of the Church who is gay or lesbian to know I believe you have a place in the kingdom and recognize that sometimes it may be difficult for you to see where you fit in the Lord’s Church, but you do.” He went on to say “We need to listen to and understand what our LGBT brothers and sisters are feeling and experiencing. Certainly, we must do better than we have done in the past so that all members feel they have a spiritual home where their brothers and sisters love them and where they have a place to worship and serve the Lord.
Of course, this was before President Monson passed and the new First Presidency with Elder Oaks as First Counselor was formed.
To Elder Oaks I would say, You need to listen to Elder Ballard and the LGBT members of this church!
Linda Swayne Gifford
BIO: Linda came out as a transwoman on September of 2017, just prior to her 69th birthday. This resulted in a divorce from her wife and rejection by some in her family. Her goal for later life is to be a support for the LGBT community in helping others dealing with this difficult part of their lives. She is very involved in Affirmation (a worldwide organization supporting LDS LGBTQIA) as well as SAGA (Southern Arizona Gender Alliance).
Through the lens of pure love, we see mortal beings of infinite potential and worth, and beloved sons and daughters of Almighty God. Once we see through that lens, we cannot discount, disregard, or discriminate against anyone. Dieter Uchtdorf, October 6, 2018 General Conference of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints
Be sure to like and follow Life Outside the Book of Mormon Belt on Facebook by clicking here.
Life Outside The Book of Mormon Belt 
Dear Linda,
Thank you so much for this. Your brother’s words to you break my heart. Where is humility and love in those words? They are so lacking in both. On the other hand, your testimony is one of power, a force for good.
With love,
Rebecca
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Interesting. I listened to Elder Oaks talk on Saturday and only heard that our genders were the same in the prexistence as they are on earth and would be the same when we left this earth regardless of how any of us feel about it. This was and is and always will be an eternal principle and nothing that we haven’t always known.
Nonetheless, I realized that there were be those who would jump all over this just looking to be offended. And sure enough, there has been. We will not always face the challenges we face on earth. We should all take great joy in that. I know I do…
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Hi Freedom Wins! Glad to see your still reading. 🙂
You bring up an interesting point. He did say that gender is eternal. I believe that. The question is, can a gender be something separate from genitalia? Its interesting that Pres. Oaks first dismisses scientific information on the subject because the science of gender formation (private part formation) is hardly cut and dry.
I wish he’d go back to the way he spoke at the press conference after the new presidency was announced. Then he said that we have a lot to learn about transgender. This weekend, he didn’t seem like he was interested in learning much.
You probably noted the quotation from Elder Uchtdorf *I included at the end of Linda’s words. *That message is *the message I hope readers walk away with. Regardless of what you currently think or believe about any number of things, trans people stand before us, raw and in pain, and we need to develop the kind of endless compassion that is godly and spend less time trying to figure out the level of righteousness or unrighteousness of our eternal siblings. Love them. Hear them.
And by reading, you have heard. So thanks for that.
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Let’s rethink this.
Your question, “The question is, can a gender be something separate from genitalia? “ doesn’t truly make any sense. The comment was that our SPIRITS are either male OR female (not both). And a MALE spirit is NOT put in a FEMALE body. or vice versa. “Linda” was not female before coming to this earth. She CAN CHOOSE to be female while on this earth, but HE will be MALE after this life as he was male prior to coming to earth. Period. For those born with both genitals and a doctor or parent chooses…yes, they can screw that decision up. As we can all agree, the Lord knows that.
I think we’re more understanding of trials than most who are hurt or complaining give us credit for. And, as instructed by the Prophet in Women’s Conference, I’m signing off on this social media blog outlet for the next tens days.
My best to all here.
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Glad to see that the church I rejected for its discrimination policies is still in force with new people to treat with discrimination and condescension. Perhaps you should go back to debating the number of male vs female angel spirits that can dance on the head of a pin.
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Elder Oaks clear did say that we should get our information from people who are qualified in their field of expertise and do not speak from selfish motives or for some financial incentive or have a conflict of interest. He said we should not trust information from secular sources whose expertise or authority do not coincide with the topic one is inquiring about. For example, a great actor or an astrophysicist may not know anything about pediatric endocrinology or the treatment of ambiguous genitalia. When he says that gender is eternal, his is not ruling out the existence of intersex conditions like androgen insensitivity syndrome. People with this condition are biologically male, have XY chromosomes, undescended testicles, and high testosterone levels that their tissues cannot respond to because their testosterone receptors have mutations that cause them to be unable to respond to the presence of testosterone. These individuals look like beautiful females. At puberty, however, they do not have periods because, although they have vaginas, they don’t have a uterus. Generally, they perceive themselves to be female although some rarely perceive themselves to be male. What is the gender of their spirits? Probably female most of the time, I think, but that is something we cannot verify with certainty with our current technology. Individuals with Klinefelter’s Syndrome have XXY chromosomes. They often have some secondary female characteristics but usually have functional male genitalia. Some have a self-perceived gender that is female while others have a self-perceived gender that is male. Can some have female spirits and others have male spirits? Possibly. Some individuals with hypospadias or penises–often on the small side–with urethral openings–the opening where urine comes out–that are not at the tip but lower down. Some of these individuals have self-perceived genders that are male. Others feel that they are female. From 1945 to 1975, many women took diethylstilbesterol (DES), an estrogen-like compound, during their pregnancies to prevent premature labor. A quarter of their male children of these women have been found to be gay, transsexual, or transvestite. I am one such male and have struggled with urges to cross-dress for many years despite a clear self-perception of being male. 1500 compounds that are in common use today as plastics precursors, insecticides, herbicides, flame retardants used in upholstery, and heavy metals like lead, arsenic, and cadmium have designated as hormone disruptors and have been shown to affect the sexual behavior of laboratory animals and wildlife and are suspected to cause cancer, endometriosis, autism, and gender dysphoria. I know for a fact that Pres. Oaks is aware of and recognizes all these problems because I have written to him and discussed these issues with him personally. I am a retired general surgeon and live in Pres. Oaks’ stake. His daughter Jenny, the violinist, and my daughter, a Tony Award-winning soprano, are friends. I believe that most of the problems of the LGBTQIA community are mortality-acquired problems that we will be relieved of when we shed our mortal bodies and return to the spirit world. I think that many of us feel compelled to do things that are often not desirable to opposite-sex partners and to heteronormative communities in or out of the Church. The law of chastity tells us that we should have no sexual relations except with opposite-sex partners to whom we are legally wedded. Otherwise, we should be celibate whether we are heterosexual, homosexual, transsexual, asexual, or intersex. Generally, I think that one’s self-perceived gender is most likely what our spirit gender is, but perhaps not always. From a practical standpoint, sexology specialists, geneticists, pediatric surgeons, and endocrinologists who are familiar with these issues suggest that intersex individuals should not have surgeries done on their genital tissues until they are old enough to communicate their self-perceived gender and give informed consent to any treatments or procedures that are recommended to them. Self-perceived gender is commonly expressed at ages 3-4 years old. If self-perceived gender is trans, or the opposite of their assigned gender at birth based on the appearance of their external genitalia, the parents and others are advised to allow the child to transition socially and take a wait-and-see approach to see how their gender self-perception evolves. Many children revert to a cis-gender self-perception.
In other cases, a trans-self-perception persists. Trying to beat a child’s self-perceived gender out of the mind of any child commonly traumatizes the parent-child relationship, which is known to be associated with children developing a trans-self-identity–not a good idea. The ability to give informed consent generally comes much later. SRS is not permitted prior to the age of 18 when individuals are legally recognized as adults. Puberty blockers are commonly given just prior to puberty, but these youth and their parents are informed that sterility may result. The same can be said for opposite-sex hormone administration. Preventing suicide and severe depression is important and commonly involves supporting the child in their self-perceived gender. Some individuals develop feelings of being trans later in life. Some had no perception of their gender as children while others have cis-feelings of gender. Many other combinations of feelings of gender identity and gender attraction exist. The General Authorities and First Presidency are acutely aware of all these conditions and get input from experts who have considerable expertise in these areas. One must understand that the views of experts in these areas have evolved considerably in recent years. The Church is supporting current views on how to prevent suicide in the LGBT community and has officially recognized the reality of gender dysphoria and has recommended that persons with this and related problems be treated with love and compassion and that they be given reasonable accommodations. Unfortunately, what accommodations are considered reasonable have not been clearly delineated. Temple recommends are commonly not given to members who are transsexual because their spiritual gender identity is not clear. Not having temple ordinances in this life or at this moment in time does not consign anyone to eternal damnation or to lower kingdoms of glory. The atonement of Christ and our faith and repentance for clearly delineated sins–which transition for medical and psychiatric reasons probably is not–applies to all mankind including the LGBT community. Violation of the law of chastity is a clearly delineated sin which can be repented of and forgiven completely. Obeying the law of chastity may seem hard, but it is not as hard as dealing with the consequences of not obeying it. Forming partnerships where either party does not feel obligated to refrain from sexual relations with other individuals opens one up to pregnancies out of wedlock, feelings of betrayal and lack of worth as well as AIDS, hepatitis C, herpes, and other STDs. Obedience to the law of chastity leads to having children with two opposite-sex parents who provide unique male and female input and are committed to providing for their children. Couples who have and do obey the law of chastity can live without guilt or flashbacks to times when wild flings and indiscretions with other partners took place that pollute the joys of living with a pure and faithful spouse. Having children and grandchildren who likewise have obeyed the law of chastity and are living productive lives is among the greatest joys one can imagine. It is a joy that expands with little effort after all one’s children are raised and married for untold generations. I have been divorced from my partner of 35 years because she couldn’t stomach even the idea that I cross-dress. I have been celibate for 10 years but am slowly seeking to be reconciled with my ex-wife. Neither one of us has ever had another sexual partner, which has been a source of great comfort to both of us. Fortunately, we see our children and grandchildren together on a regular basis. Adoption is possible for those who cannot have their own children in this life. Contrary to what many think, the Church is not opposed to gay couples having families despite their disapproval of gay marriage. They simply don’t want to baptize the children of such families until they are adults or age 18 to avoid conflicts between their same-sex parents and their baptized member children. Not having children in this life for whatever reason is not the end of the world either. Opposite-sex marriage partners can be found and sealed together in the spirit world before one is resurrected, which opens up the possibility that all of God’s children, no matter what their mortal abnormalities and problems were, can become like our Heavenly Parents and have an eternal increase. If same-sex partnerships were made eternal, an eternal increase would never be possible for those individuals. Why make binding legal relationships and culminate them with emotionally binding sexual relations that cannot continue or result in an eternal increase in the next life? Members of the LGBT community are precious and should be cherished by their families, the Church, and society in general. Ostracism leads to bitterness, anger, resentment, vengeance, violence, or depression, anxiety, and suicide, states that are akin to hell on earth. Hearts need to open in both directions. Forgiveness, patience, and Christ-like love need to be fostered on both sides of the fence. This is a time of tumultuous change. Level heads, good observation, good analysis, and rational conclusion-making are needed as experience and understanding of LGBT conditions improve in and outside this community.
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Thank you for this reply. I love replies from contemplative people.
I’m in no position to argue science and I’ll take on face value your credentials and that your relationship with President Oaks is what you say. Since you have his ear, perhaps you can advise him that his language is not conveying the love you say he feels. I’ve listened to his talk more than once and I hear him saying that the only science that qualifies as truth is that which coincides with centuries old biases that have been passed down via religion. The Church I joined 40 years ago advocated attaining truth, knowledge, and light in whatever place it be found. Why is he telling people to avoid things that don’t jive with ancient customs and prejudice rather than asking us to study it out and bring it to our Heavenly Father in prayer? If he is correct that he understands Heavenly Father’s will to perfection, he risks nothing by advocating we read everything.
The reality is, Mormons are studying and pondering these things, and we are praying. And Heavenly Father is responding. Its hard for me to understand why President Oaks presents with such a hardened heart.
Pres. Oaks’ approach begs the question: he has the answer and proves that his answer is correct by the existence of the question in scripture. I would love to see leaders demonstrate the teachability (indeed humility) you say they have and they expect from us. I would like President Oaks to recognize that he knowingly gives offence that elevates the risk of suicide, accept responsibility for that, and apologize to the people he harms. It is entirely possible for him to teach doctrine without marginalizing people, yet he persists. Perhaps he should consider modeling his next General Conference talk after Elder Uchtdorf. (Do they *like each other?)
Now, I’m very interested in your experience as one who desires to cross-dress. I have a long-time friend who harbors the desire to wear female clothes and have done a *little looking into the research. I understand that it is not related to the experience of transgender; cross-dressers identify as their physical gender manifests. Wholly different. Yet the two life experiences are often melded together in the minds of the mainstream. I’d be interested in hosting a guest post by you on this topic if you should ever feel so inclined.
Thank you for the facts/stats/information you provide. I find it essential for us to be ever willing to learn and study–and to trust God to guide us.
For me? If I’m going to make a mistake in the eyes of God, I’m going to make it in the direction of full inclusion and acceptance. But I can’t see how that is ever a mistake to a God who tells us to love our neighbor as we love ourselves. Heaven knows, I want to be loved, accepted, and included.
Thanks again.
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That’s a whole lotta mansplaining.
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Dear Freedom Wins
Sometimes we arrive at a new perspective and even the truth by our willingness to see outside the box. Willingness to see outside the box is a process that allows us to expansively grow and it results in new and greater truth being presented to us.
Your argument of perfect gender match between spirit and body I find to be both narrow and dated.
Regardless of the gender of the spirit before birth, physiology is not so simple. In everyday life humans and even mammals appear to be divided neatly into male / female polarization. This would seemingly support your perception of a divine duality in biology. Yet, in reality many are not born into bodies that have a clear cut distinction of male / female sex characteristics at the chromosomal level.
Different biological influences can produce a complex array of sexual characteristics in an infant, leaving doctors and parents uncertain how to classify the sex of a child.
Regardless of whether a person is completely male or female before birth, the idea of the perfect match between body and spirit is nullified, because the body is not always clearly male or female.
Please reconsider voicing the exclusive opinion you have stated here. It is both dangerous and confusing to those who deal with the complex biological issues which make life not as cut and dried as you and many church leaders have presented it to be. Thinking outside the box and an openness to all the facts may serve you well.
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Your blog post says, “The church even denies the possibility of intersex people even though it is a well-documented fact.” This in and of itself is false and/or taken out of context. The church denies that a male spirit has been put into a female body. They do NOT deny that bodies can be born with both genitals….THAT’s the part that’s a documented fact.
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So you believe it’s a possible mistake for Male/Female to be born with both genetalia, but it’s impossible for them to be born with the wrong genitalia? So there can be a half mix up, but not a full one, why? And who could you possibly know how/what a person feels about there own body? It seems to me that if a person can be born with both, they would also be born with the wrong ones as well, but there isn’t any hard and physical proof so they’re scared of the unknown.
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“So you believe it’s a possible mistake for Male/Female to be born with both genetalia, but it’s impossible for them to be born with the wrong genitalia?” (genitalia should read soul here,)
Therefore, your words in your sentence redundant.
I believe it is IMPOSSIBLE to be born with the incorrect soul/gender despite what physical mistakes are seen in the genitals. We are fortunate that the Lord will correct that in the here after, What he will NOT ‘correct’ is the soul’s gender. (That is not the character or nature of God’s laws.) It (meaning the soul’s gender) is the same yesteday, today, and forever. If your soul is female it was and always will be, if it is male, it was and will always be male.
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““The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wise people so full of doubts.” — Bertrand Russell
If you ever want to see a gathering of utter fools who are completely sure of themselves, look no further than your local ward.
https://www.menshealth.com/health/a19516412/3-signs-you-started-as-a-girl/
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I have a question or several for those who are so positive that God would never allow a male spirit into a female body or put a female spirit into a male body.
There is androgen insensitivity, where an XY chromosome produces a female body. It happens because they are genetically male, but their body does not respond in any way to androgen, so their body develops as a female. Sometimes they feel female and other times they feel male stuck inside a female body. So, is this a male spirit or a female spirit? Is it a male spirit and because of birth defects, it got stuck in a female body? Or is it a female spirit that got XY chromosomes?
And what about that body with both male and female body parts? Is it a male spirit or female spirit? Well, in our modern world we would test to see what the genetics are, then decide. But before we knew about chromosomes, the doctor asked the parents to decide or he just decided and then did surgery. If surgery for that kind of birth defect is OK in a new born, which it is for the church, why isn’t it OK with the church for an adult who feels their spirit is wrong for their body? Or the androgen insensitive?
Oh, you don’t know all the answers? Well, neither do I and neither do church leaders. But the church insists that the body parts match the spirit, in spite of the mismatch between the person’s genetics and their body. So, what if the person feels male and they have genetic proof they are male? Well, if they refuse to live as a woman, the church excommunicates them.
This is much more complicated than Elder Oaks thinks it is. But he thinks he knows more about it than science does and science is just starting to figure it out and still has a long way to go.
What about the XXY person? Male spirit or female spirit?
And why is it that we accept that a spirit of normal intelligence can be put in a body without more than a brain stem? Why is it that a spirit that is physically whole can be born to a body with no arms or legs? Why do we accept birth defects for everything except sexual parts? When obviously there are bodies with the wrong sexual parts, such as androgen insensitivity or a bodies born with both male and female body parts.
This is lots more complicated than Elders Oaks thinks it is, and he is just plain arrogant to think he knows more than science.
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Thank you, Anna. The idea that gender is eternal–an idea encased in our non-canonical proclamation–may, in fact, be sound, but to me that shores up those who claim a gender that doesn’t match its visual biology. For those who feel torn between maleness and femaleness, my sense of it isn’t changed for precisely the reasons you suggest. The body is a poor, outward manifestation of the spirit within; the body limits.
Some who are upset by my open thinking about issues like this have told me they can’t wait to see me be corrected at the judgement bar. Personally, I look forward to all the corrections I will receive from my Father in Heaven and don’t fear them, whether they come now by the Spirit or later, but I will be surprised to be corrected for loving the children of God who surround me. If I am, then I’ve been worshiping the wrong God. He can cast me out into an immortality full of people who love similarly if He chooses.
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I knew a couple that, genetically carried the hermaphrodite gene. Therefore, every one of their nine children were born wth both sets of genitalia. Each time the parent wine to the temple to pray which set to remove. Every time they received an answer and followed that answer reqardles if it went against the advice of the specialists. These children are fully grown with children of the own now.
There was not ONE error made…
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I sit somewhere between these two viewpoints. Freedom Wins is correct that President Oaks did NOT deny the existence of intersex people. He just didn’t cover that topic in this particular talk. It is unfortunate that so many are reacting against a straw man.
Gender IS eternal but that concept shouldn’t be used to mean that outward genitalia always perfectly represents one’s eternal gender. Unfortunately when some well-meaning but not fully informed members of the Church take it to mean that it then prompts transgender people to then feel that gender must not be eternal.
Anna, you bring up good points. Science is learning that even DNA is not a completely reliable way to determine one’s gender. In cases of ambiguity I do feel it makes sense to ask the individual which gender they feel they are. But in order for that to happen a lot of people would have to get over their idea that that is a horrible, sinful thing to ask.
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” Unfortunately when some well-meaning but not fully informed members of the Church…”
That would be Every. Single. One. Of. Them.
If you’re looking for people who are immensely well-meaning, and at the same time extraordinarily ignorant, just take a look around you every Sunday.
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Walter, are you saying all members are exactly the same? From the way some people explain it many are LGBTQ-friendly but aren’t always vocal about it.
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Why in the name of all that is holy do such people give a whit about other people’s privates? What exactly are they threatened by?
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I’m so sorry your brother misgendered you. That must’ve really hurt.
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And here, in Bro. Jones, we are taught by example. Empathy.
Contrary individual opinions will never qualify as mourning with those who mourn.
Thank you, Bro. Jones. Come back anytime.
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I am a transgender woman. I became a woman at age 64. My loving wife of 33 years passed from this life when a truck landed on her car. What I am hearing is I am an evil person. No matter my love for God. I am damed for not only this life but all so in the eyes of the God I love. So what can I do? I can not change what I am. I do not want to be evil. So what is left for one such as I? To take my own life. End my evilness. Go stand befor my God and be cast out from him for being evil. People wonder why so many transgender people end there own lives. For me I love my God I want to live my life to it’s fullest. I do not know why I have been given this burden, but bure it I will. I will always have the love of God in my heart. All may turn against me but, I have the love love of of God, His Son Jesus Christ nnd the Holy Spirit. My life is in there hands.
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Oh, sweet Sindee! Not all will turn against you! I’ll stand by you, sit by you, hang out with you, laugh with you and cry. Those of us who will may not be the majority, but we see your heart and know your voice is a blessing to hear. If I could, right now, I’d hug you. Please take care of yourself.
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Evil person? I’m not sure where you’re hearing that. Many of the statements quoted here have been taken out of context. I’m hoping you have faith that a loving Lord has a plan for you. A plan where you’ll be happier than we can even imagine here on the earth? We each endure our own brand of personal hell.. Our challenge is not to act of these feelings on earth.
None of us have trials that corner the market on pain I have suffered so much in my life I have a million reasons to take my own life and to feel the Lord has given up on me. What does it matter, etc.. However, I cannot dismiss that I am looking at my trials through human eyes not spiritual eyes. It’s that faith that keeps me going on days I think it would be better to stop.
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More mansplaining. FFS, when confronted by a woman who is a human being contemplating ending her own life, this individual chooses to attack her further. What in the name of gods is wrong with YOU?
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This talk appears to be proof that the decision to demote Pres. Uchtdorf and replace him with Pres. Oaks was specifically to give a f— you to liberal Mormons – not just the LGBTQ demographic. Did you also notice how he condemned abortion and euthanasia but couldn’t be bothered to condemn capital punishment or the military industrial complex? And why is this? Because the church leadership wants to subtly manipulate members (and everyone else) into voting Republican so they can implement policies benefiting the rich and hurting ordinary families, which they then take advantage of. If they care about families, where’s their endorsement of single-payer health care? Where’s their endorsement of universal education, both pre-K and higher education? Where’s their condemnation of climate change (which Elder Perry had a perfect opportunity to do in his Henry David Thoreau talk but decided to give the middle finger to by talking about “spiritual fuel” instead)? Where’s their condemnation of Wall Street deregulation? Where’s their condemnation of corporate campaign contributions by which our politicians are bought and sold?
And if this f— you of liberal Mormons really is the will of God, then Depeche Mode was right, God does have a sick sense of humor, and he doesn’t deserve to even exist, let alone have powers of godhood and be worshipped and obeyed.
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Oh my, you are kidding!
🤦🏼♀️
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